Author Topic: Muse on Minis 293  (Read 4786 times)

sepher32

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Muse on Minis 293
« on: December 22, 2016, 10:10:25 PM »
Sorry, this one got to me late and required more work than usual. I'll have it up sometime tomorrow.

Happy Christmas.
Yes. We. Caine.

StevenSwayze

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2016, 02:40:14 AM »
thanks for turning this around so fast, I had issues getting it uploaded to you so that is awesome!

Merry Christmas everybody!
Khal Drogo, Khaleesi, Khan, Khador, Khacsmith...

sepher32

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2016, 02:03:56 AM »
Technical difficulties have ensued. There might not be any Muse for Christmas this year.
Yes. We. Caine.

Skittles

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2016, 09:38:11 AM »
Technical difficulties have ensued. There might not be any Muse for Christmas this year.


Fizzics

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2016, 08:46:54 AM »
what's the word?

AduroT

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2016, 08:54:58 AM »

StevenSwayze

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2016, 06:22:10 PM »
its in Keith's hands now, not sure whats the word lol
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sepher32

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2017, 03:49:25 AM »
Santa got drunk and took a few detours, but he did eventually deliver. 293 has been recovered and posted.

Sorry for the delay.
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Frejdruk

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2017, 02:48:42 PM »
Just started listening, thanks for fixing and releasing the episode!

LunarSol

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2017, 03:53:19 PM »
Rogue One talk:

- While it initially bothered me as well, I thought it was kind of funny that all of your "Vader would be like" comments regarding Leia's diplomatic excuse are pretty much exactly how he actually reacts to her in Episode IV. 

misomiso

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2017, 04:20:47 PM »
They changed the ending of 'Passengers' from the script as well (won't put what originally was).

Assassins Creed is bad. 

Good Star Wars talk.

I still want A muse On minis book club.


LunarSol

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2017, 04:37:33 PM »
They changed the ending of 'Passengers' from the script as well (won't put what originally was).

This is a weird one for me.  I didn't love the ending and really would have loved something different, but the original wasn't at all what I wanted either.

Reuben

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Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2017, 04:45:20 PM »
On terrain:
I think there's a cultural issue in the Warmachine community when it comes to terrain. My experience is that there seems to be an expectation that terrain ultimately doesn't affect the outcome of games. I've run tournaments where I threw the guidelines out the window and focused on themed boards, and players hated it. People seem to have a view that you should be able to rinse/repeat your strategy game after game. Terrain is incredibly disruptive to game plans and that disruption should be seen as a chance for interesting, dynamic decision making to take place.
We're in a good place with mk3 - changes to Eyeless Sight mean that relevant forests are not just auto wins for Legion. But I think this desire for the perfect dojo game to translate to the perfect table game means that terrain's disruptive capabilities are still being viewed as a negative, not a positive.

octavius_maximus

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2017, 06:10:42 PM »
On terrain:
I think there's a cultural issue in the Warmachine community when it comes to terrain. My experience is that there seems to be an expectation that terrain ultimately doesn't affect the outcome of games. I've run tournaments where I threw the guidelines out the window and focused on themed boards, and players hated it. People seem to have a view that you should be able to rinse/repeat your strategy game after game. Terrain is incredibly disruptive to game plans and that disruption should be seen as a chance for interesting, dynamic decision making to take place.
We're in a good place with mk3 - changes to Eyeless Sight mean that relevant forests are not just auto wins for Legion. But I think this desire for the perfect dojo game to translate to the perfect table game means that terrain's disruptive capabilities are still being viewed as a negative, not a positive.

I love the increase in terrain in the game. Its really positive having a lot of meaningful terrain in the game.

But there is a problem with a lack of good ability to deal with terrain. Wurmwoods power level is very much connected to the power of forests.

LunarSol

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2017, 07:01:10 PM »
There's plenty of ability to deal with terrain; just not giant pieces of terrain.  I don't think we want or need to go back to where terrain has to be limited to keep it from determining games, which is the part of MK2 that created the impression that terrain shouldn't really be a factor.  It was simply too easy to create a board in which certain models could essentially run the entire table and TOs saw enough of these games to keep terrain from creating them.

On a tangent, this is honestly my absolute, #1 gripe with the Hellmouth.  A couple months in they completely rebroke forests and Legion.  Give the thing the Colossal LOS rules and I'll be much happier.

As for forcing players to adopt different strategies, there's nothing quite like a big piece of impassable just outside the deployment zone.  It's easy to deal with, but requires players to rethink positioning from deployment, which prevents canned opening turns quite well.

Crump

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2017, 01:21:41 AM »
I set up a table at the muse shop to play warmachine on, it's got like 10 pieces of terrain. It's disruptive but not miserable. I'll post a picture when I can.

misomiso

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2017, 01:37:06 AM »
@lunarsol

Passengers spoilers

Spoiler: show
A Better ending would have been if he had put her back in the sleeping medical bay by drugging her food or something similar.  That way the story would have been symmetrical in that he wakes her up without her permission and puts her back to sleep without her permission.

Then you would cut to her waking up, and discovering that he HAD manage to build a new sleep pod but it had taken him 8 years or so (you would need some for shadowing earlier in the movie or him trying to build a new one from scratch). 

The ending in the original script is that they eject ALL the passengers by mistake, then when the ship lands hundred of people come out of it who are their Descendents (Bit  too freaky for Hollywood...)

kamilion

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2017, 07:31:50 AM »
@lunarsol

Passengers spoilers

Spoiler: show
A Better ending would have been if he had put her back in the sleeping medical bay by drugging her food or something similar.  That way the story would have been symmetrical in that he wakes her up without her permission and puts her back to sleep without her permission.

Then you would cut to her waking up, and discovering that he HAD manage to build a new sleep pod but it had taken him 8 years or so (you would need some for shadowing earlier in the movie or him trying to build a new one from scratch). 

The ending in the original script is that they eject ALL the passengers by mistake, then when the ship lands hundred of people come out of it who are their Descendents (Bit  too freaky for Hollywood...)

Ugh.
Spoiler: show
Gah, I don't think I would have liked that ending at all. The theater ending is a little too stereotypical 'feel good', but better than 'oops, accidentally murdered 5000 people, let's get to the inbreeding!' I agree that your ending idea is more interesting. Personally, my biggest complaint was the cliche of 'being revived after it looks like he wasn't revived', like, just once, how about the tech works like it's supposed to and the guy just is revived? I'll never understand why that is still considered dramatic.
Josh Simpson

Meh.

LunarSol

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2017, 08:54:23 AM »
@lunarsol

Passengers spoilers

Spoiler: show
A Better ending would have been if he had put her back in the sleeping medical bay by drugging her food or something similar.  That way the story would have been symmetrical in that he wakes her up without her permission and puts her back to sleep without her permission.

Then you would cut to her waking up, and discovering that he HAD manage to build a new sleep pod but it had taken him 8 years or so (you would need some for shadowing earlier in the movie or him trying to build a new one from scratch). 

The ending in the original script is that they eject ALL the passengers by mistake, then when the ship lands hundred of people come out of it who are their Descendents (Bit  too freaky for Hollywood...)

Ugh.
Spoiler: show
Gah, I don't think I would have liked that ending at all. The theater ending is a little too stereotypical 'feel good', but better than 'oops, accidentally murdered 5000 people, let's get to the inbreeding!' I agree that your ending idea is more interesting. Personally, my biggest complaint was the cliche of 'being revived after it looks like he wasn't revived', like, just once, how about the tech works like it's supposed to and the guy just is revived? I'll never understand why that is still considered dramatic.


Spoiler: show
Mostly for me I just found the story more interesting without the crisis entirely.  No matter the script, the crisis wipes away an interesting conflict at its most interesting point.  One route if they must keep the crisis is for him to die and leave her facing the same decision he made, but I don't know if I love that either.  Regardless, my primary disappointment is just that the crisis bypasses what's actually really interesting about the movie.

Overall, if you HAVE to go that route I think I prefer what's in the film.  Personally I probably would have kept the "repopulate" part by simply having the survivors wake up to find a child they raised together in the med pod.

cheddercaveman

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2017, 09:41:42 AM »
On terrain.  First, there is a lot of discussion saying that you were supposed to have smaller pieces of terrain, but that is not what was stated by Hungerford and Co when MK3 dropped, they said just add more pieces and didn't talk at all about them being bigger or smaller.

On terrain:
I think there's a cultural issue in the Warmachine community when it comes to terrain. My experience is that there seems to be an expectation that terrain ultimately doesn't affect the outcome of games. I've run tournaments where I threw the guidelines out the window and focused on themed boards, and players hated it. People seem to have a view that you should be able to rinse/repeat your strategy game after game. Terrain is incredibly disruptive to game plans and that disruption should be seen as a chance for interesting, dynamic decision making to take place.
We're in a good place with mk3 - changes to Eyeless Sight mean that relevant forests are not just auto wins for Legion. But I think this desire for the perfect dojo game to translate to the perfect table game means that terrain's disruptive capabilities are still being viewed as a negative, not a positive.

I do think that terrain needs to be a part of the game.  This really hits on the aspects of that amazingly well.  Terrain and having to plan around it should be a big deal.  There is a reason that Pathfinder should be valuable, so should things like Amphibious.  Also making terrain a bigger deal should also help to bring lists into more balance because people can't just assume their guns will own, or they can always charge, etc.

misomiso

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2017, 10:45:00 AM »
Re Passengers

Spoiler: show
The story concept was very good I agree, and it could have worked as a horror movie, but hollywood would never have greenlighted a $110 million dollar space horror when they go for a Space Romance.

For horror they tend to use a scattergun approach and fund loads of low budget projects in the hope that one hits big.

Interesting to note that the writer was the next big thing in hollywood for sci-fi writing for a while, and a lot of his original stuff was shoe horned into Prometheus.

granor

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2017, 11:39:31 AM »
@lunarsol

Passengers spoilers

Spoiler: show
A Better ending would have been if he had put her back in the sleeping medical bay by drugging her food or something similar.  That way the story would have been symmetrical in that he wakes her up without her permission and puts her back to sleep without her permission.

Then you would cut to her waking up, and discovering that he HAD manage to build a new sleep pod but it had taken him 8 years or so (you would need some for shadowing earlier in the movie or him trying to build a new one from scratch). 

The ending in the original script is that they eject ALL the passengers by mistake, then when the ship lands hundred of people come out of it who are their Descendents (Bit  too freaky for Hollywood...)

Ugh.
Spoiler: show
Gah, I don't think I would have liked that ending at all. The theater ending is a little too stereotypical 'feel good', but better than 'oops, accidentally murdered 5000 people, let's get to the inbreeding!' I agree that your ending idea is more interesting. Personally, my biggest complaint was the cliche of 'being revived after it looks like he wasn't revived', like, just once, how about the tech works like it's supposed to and the guy just is revived? I'll never understand why that is still considered dramatic.


Spoiler: show
Mostly for me I just found the story more interesting without the crisis entirely.  No matter the script, the crisis wipes away an interesting conflict at its most interesting point.  One route if they must keep the crisis is for him to die and leave her facing the same decision he made, but I don't know if I love that either.  Regardless, my primary disappointment is just that the crisis bypasses what's actually really interesting about the movie.

Overall, if you HAVE to go that route I think I prefer what's in the film.  Personally I probably would have kept the "repopulate" part by simply having the survivors wake up to find a child they raised together in the med pod.

Spoiler: show
I really liked the crisis part of the movie.  I liked the fact that they needed two people to save the ship and he was willing to die to save everyone.  I know it is super cliche but I admit I left the theater having really enjoyed the movie.  Would the other ideas have done that too?  Maybe, but I always think how many divorced people do I know that get back together...? 0 so the emotional aspect of the people getting back together feels like a huge uphill battle I am not sure the movie could have sold me on.  I do really love the kid in the med-bay pod idea at the end.

Overall I really enjoyed the movie it asks a tough question but doesn't linger on it for so long that I get depressed.  the action at the end I enjoyed even if I knew it was kind of forced and I would recommend the movie to other people


I liked the movie and would recommend it.

LunarSol

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2017, 12:47:45 PM »
Spoiler: show
I really liked the crisis part of the movie.  I liked the fact that they needed two people to save the ship and he was willing to die to save everyone.  I know it is super cliche but I admit I left the theater having really enjoyed the movie.  Would the other ideas have done that too?  Maybe, but I always think how many divorced people do I know that get back together...? 0 so the emotional aspect of the people getting back together feels like a huge uphill battle I am not sure the movie could have sold me on.  I do really love the kid in the med-bay pod idea at the end.

Overall I really enjoyed the movie it asks a tough question but doesn't linger on it for so long that I get depressed.  the action at the end I enjoyed even if I knew it was kind of forced and I would recommend the movie to other people


I liked the movie and would recommend it.

Ultimately, yeah, I liked it; would recommend.  The real reason I'd have liked a different ending is simply that I feel like the movie has what it takes to be a real classic, but the rather safe ending probably limits it to being forgotten in a few years.

Postin Dirty

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2017, 02:33:34 PM »
people liked it and would recommend Passengers? it was entertaining enough, but at its best ultimately felt shallow and at its worst recreates the problematic style of relationship dynamics that have people have been criticising romance movies of having for decades now. I don't reckon its cinema worthy, more something to stream on a rainy day.

Spoiler: show
misomiso, that ending idea is terrible; it further removes Aurora's agency, and devalues the point the movie at least attempts to make in that waking her was actually a monstrous thing to do, because it was committed without her consent. Doing more things against the character's will is just nasty
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 02:35:11 PM by Postin Dirty »

Flamephoenix

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2017, 05:15:13 PM »
people liked it and would recommend Passengers? it was entertaining enough, but at its best ultimately felt shallow and at its worst recreates the problematic style of relationship dynamics that have people have been criticising romance movies of having for decades now. I don't reckon its cinema worthy, more something to stream on a rainy day.

Spoiler: show
misomiso, that ending idea is terrible; it further removes Aurora's agency, and devalues the point the movie at least attempts to make in that waking her was actually a monstrous thing to do, because it was committed without her consent. Doing more things against the character's will is just nasty


Spoiler: show
I dont know if I would say it was a great movie, but It feels like up until the ending they were trying to do something unique, so I'm willing to accept some problems in a story and support it to encourage more original movies and more highish budget movies that aren't just the norm. I do think if the end of the movie ended with Chris Pratt dying and Jennifer Lawrence waking up another person succumbing to the same weakness that Chris Pratt (I'm forgetting character names) it would have been a much more memorable ending

Postin Dirty

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2017, 09:19:59 PM »
people liked it and would recommend Passengers? it was entertaining enough, but at its best ultimately felt shallow and at its worst recreates the problematic style of relationship dynamics that have people have been criticising romance movies of having for decades now. I don't reckon its cinema worthy, more something to stream on a rainy day.

Spoiler: show
misomiso, that ending idea is terrible; it further removes Aurora's agency, and devalues the point the movie at least attempts to make in that waking her was actually a monstrous thing to do, because it was committed without her consent. Doing more things against the character's will is just nasty


Spoiler: show
I dont know if I would say it was a great movie, but It feels like up until the ending they were trying to do something unique, so I'm willing to accept some problems in a story and support it to encourage more original movies and more highish budget movies that aren't just the norm. I do think if the end of the movie ended with Chris Pratt dying and Jennifer Lawrence waking up another person succumbing to the same weakness that Chris Pratt (I'm forgetting character names) it would have been a much more memorable ending


Spoiler: show
were they really doing something unique? it all felt very typical to me. The setting seemed little more than window dressing, otherwise the whole thing played out like a romance flick. This whole thing just recreated the norms for me.

As soon as old Laury Fishburne walked on, you knew he was going to die.

The ending you propose would be quite a bit more interesting, to actually explore that circumstance, the loneliness, through more than one protagonist. Actually make the movie more about her than just the Pratt (I forget his name too, Jake or some such banal shit)

misomiso

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2017, 02:14:33 AM »
@postin dirty

Spoiler: show
I know about the agency problem, but for me that's the point.  It gives the film a circular symmetry, and I would try and do it lightly.

It's just an idea, but i thought the original ending really let the film down, and endings are so important in film as that's what the audience remembers the most, as there is quite a lot of info that suggests that even if a film is bad, if the last 15 minutes is good people will generally report taht they had a good time.


Assassins creed is still bad though.




Flamephoenix

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2017, 09:20:18 AM »
people liked it and would recommend Passengers? it was entertaining enough, but at its best ultimately felt shallow and at its worst recreates the problematic style of relationship dynamics that have people have been criticising romance movies of having for decades now. I don't reckon its cinema worthy, more something to stream on a rainy day.

Spoiler: show
misomiso, that ending idea is terrible; it further removes Aurora's agency, and devalues the point the movie at least attempts to make in that waking her was actually a monstrous thing to do, because it was committed without her consent. Doing more things against the character's will is just nasty


Spoiler: show
I dont know if I would say it was a great movie, but It feels like up until the ending they were trying to do something unique, so I'm willing to accept some problems in a story and support it to encourage more original movies and more highish budget movies that aren't just the norm. I do think if the end of the movie ended with Chris Pratt dying and Jennifer Lawrence waking up another person succumbing to the same weakness that Chris Pratt (I'm forgetting character names) it would have been a much more memorable ending


Spoiler: show
were they really doing something unique? it all felt very typical to me. The setting seemed little more than window dressing, otherwise the whole thing played out like a romance flick. This whole thing just recreated the norms for me.

As soon as old Laury Fishburne walked on, you knew he was going to die.

The ending you propose would be quite a bit more interesting, to actually explore that circumstance, the loneliness, through more than one protagonist. Actually make the movie more about her than just the Pratt (I forget his name too, Jake or some such banal shit)


Spoiler: show
I actually think the sci fi setting is what made this more unique. I found it evoked the loneliness better than say castaway because he was surrounded by people but was isolated to the extreme. I don't think they necessarily succeeded in making a unique story (since there is no such thing) but I found it different from the current "meta" of movies if that makes sense... Though talking through it now I actually think a flip about halfway could have been cool. Have the accident kill Chris Pratt about an hour in, then have Aurora (I REMEMBERED!) become the protagonist and have her wake up someone else (maybe the Laurence Fishburnes guy I'm not sure). I also thought it was interesting exploring the moral implications of dooming someone with you... Though I wish they went farther... Honestly I think in that situation people would be tempted to wake up way more than one person (if not the whole ship)

Postin Dirty

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2017, 06:11:31 AM »
@postin dirty

Spoiler: show
I know about the agency problem, but for me that's the point.  It gives the film a circular symmetry, and I would try and do it lightly.

It's just an idea, but i thought the original ending really let the film down, and endings are so important in film as that's what the audience remembers the most, as there is quite a lot of info that suggests that even if a film is bad, if the last 15 minutes is good people will generally report taht they had a good time.


Assassins creed is still bad though.
I don't disagree about reworking the ending, I just don't think your idea fits the bill. Not just because of the ideas of agency and gender politics that make me queasy, but also because the premise of the movie wasn't well delivered anyway. Endings are completely dependant on how they resolve the process of the entire narrative, and I find the actual body of this film to be lacking in coherent substance to lead it towards a satisfactory ending. While what you propose has potential because it tries to end the movie the way it started, it feels more like an essay writing technique, rather than effective story telling. But I guess I could also have a very different idea in mind of what it would look like.

Spoiler: show
I actually think the sci fi setting is what made this more unique. I found it evoked the loneliness better than say castaway because he was surrounded by people but was isolated to the extreme. I don't think they necessarily succeeded in making a unique story (since there is no such thing) but I found it different from the current "meta" of movies if that makes sense... Though talking through it now I actually think a flip about halfway could have been cool. Have the accident kill Chris Pratt about an hour in, then have Aurora (I REMEMBERED!) become the protagonist and have her wake up someone else (maybe the Laurence Fishburnes guy I'm not sure). I also thought it was interesting exploring the moral implications of dooming someone with you... Though I wish they went farther... Honestly I think in that situation people would be tempted to wake up way more than one person (if not the whole ship)


Spoiler: show
One movie that I feel captures the theme of isolation in a crowd brilliantly is Lost in Translation. And you didn't even need a spaceship, just a Bill Murray.
But yeah, I definitely find a lot of those ideas evocative. But that's what also makes the movie all the more of a failure to me, in that it completely missed the opportunities to explore those narrative threads. Why couldn't he have forged 'relationships' with more people in the pods? What if aurora completely ended different to his expectations? What if he was actually up front and honest, so we could see how two adult people can actually resolve their issues? What about the reasons anyone would leave earth for this journey in the first place?

And while I'm having a gripe about the movie; Why were the robots at the end carrying crates of fruit, weren't pratt and jlaw already dead? Or if they bred, wouldn't their children be old as fuck? What are the moral implications of that? Etc etc.

misomiso

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Re: Muse on Minis 293
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2017, 06:35:40 AM »
@postindirty

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There would have been no dramatic tensions or dramatic Irony had he been upfront with Aurora.  The tension in the film comes from 'What will happen when she finds out?'

It's amazing how many love stories in movies have some kind of this 'hiding your true self', from Shakespeare Much Ado about nothing, to How to lose a guy in 10 days.